Baseline Dyno Numbers

[MikeW-RRE]

I think that I am getting called out in two other threads regarding inflated baseline dyno numbers? Can someone explain why please.


thats a nice 230 whp car :)

get some exhaust work done, and toss an intake in, and then ull be in the 250 range and feel a real difference

(i know the dyno says 260 whp, but his base was 30 higher then it really is, simple math pegs him at 230 real whp which is great :) )


If this is the dyno you were dyno'd on then its hard to say. IF not, then the difference in dyno is the reason the numbers are different.

This dynochart has 2 very true truths to it.

1. did his car gain 38 whp and 40+ torque with the tune and intake? YES

2. His is car really 264 whp. Absolutely not.

The undeniable fact is this. The cars TRUE stock power is in the 185-195 whp range. thats a fact. Regardless of what a dyno might tell you, this number is not refutable.

That being fact and said, it immediately deletes 30 hp from the peak #'s hes showing, to compensate for the inflation he got dynoing stock on this particular dyno. ( please people its very common, try a dynojet, they are all over the map) This of course would bring him into the 230-235 whp range presently, which is a great gain on just an intake and tune.. So congrats on that. Surely there is nothing wrong is 38 whp being gained so quickly.

What needs to be remembered, and shared with new uneducated members is this.

regardless of what a dyno tells you, the thing and other thing to concern yourself with, is the gained power from point a to point b and so forth.

I credit mike for doing a great job, but i think as a community ( i came here from the evom ralliart community) as a whole, we need to stop thinking what could be, and start realizing what is. TTP has done nothing but inflate and lie to customers for months now, and its been covered up many times, trust me, ive been in numerous conversations with mods that go alot like ( yeah we know hes bs,but he pays us). I really dont want another company out there trying to do the same.( and im not saying you are)

So with that said, im hoping mike is alot more respective to the truth and is excited at the gains he achieved and not the numbers that dont add up to anything but heresay.


If anything a shop would want to lower the baseline numbers, no? That makes the after number look better? Or are you saying the Dynapack is not an accurate dyno? You are used to Mustang numbers and any dyno that is not a Mustang dyno isn’t real numbers?

You compare me to the TTP guy. Scot and I see eye to eye on absolutely nothing. That was low :-P I just have no idea where you are coming from. I have never been accused of such things.

Mike W

[MikeW-RRE]

well it looks like a very nice dyno mike, but if your going to sit there and try to tell me that a 190 whp car is 215 whp because your ONE dyno says so, you need to stop inhaling fumes.



The part I missed is what makes the RalliArt a true 195 whp car? Maybe this was proved elsewhere and I just have not read it.

What true whp does an EVO X have? My dyno shows them a few in the mid 240s to most in the mid to high 250s. That seems fairly standard. Is this a Dynapack Dyno in inaccurate thing? Or you dont believe in dynos in general?

Mike W

[bmanuhutu]

i dont know how this guy can pull the "FACT" card when he's probably never seen any other stock RA baseline runs besides his, he's probably just heard that "oh they baseline at 190 because that's what my tuner says". woop dee effin doo.

In fact why would a tuner increase baseline?, that would lessen the overall gains. Secondchance did have his car tuned on a dynapack dyno, some shop called lightspeed innovations. Do you have graphs? numbers?. Baseline numbers will be different for each cars, depending on the condition of the cars, but for him to claim FACT that ALL BASE RA's put out 190 WHP on a dynapack seems to be just absurd. Where are his facts?

RRE has YEARS of experience with mitsu from the DSM days...

[Ladogaboy]

Mike, I think he is still sore about something with TTP and possibly a stingy dyno where he was tuned. If an EVO X dynos out at 215-220, sure, an RA will probably only hit 190. I wouldn't worry about too much, though; the people need to know, know.

[MikeW-RRE]

There are maybe 3 AWD Dynapacks here in So Cal that all got bought about the same time. All read pretty much the same. Churches Automotive here in So Cal has an older one that reads super high compared to this batch. We run SAE correction which I believe is standard. Some of the early Dynapacks had a physical calibration test and method. But that was years ago. Mine is all sealed up and under the program's menu the "calibration" tab is locked out with a password.

I am still all butt hurt over the TTP comparison honestly. Scott _hates_ me. In fact he is the only other person that has jumped all over my posts with equal veracity :-P Some of the message board dog fights I had with him were epic. The best threads were deleted somehow, back when they were selling the Z-Chip. God killed a kitten when I got lumped in with him.

In other news... Club RalliArt now has it's first (if small) flame war!

Mike W

[MikeW-RRE]

Ok ok ok. I think I fingered out where all this comes from. I found secondchance over at EVOm. I don't hang out there much, it can get pretty toxic. Secondchance is dynoed and tuned at Lightspeed in Canada with what looks like on their web site to be a nice new modern Dynapack. Might be one rated at a little less hp than mine but that shouldn’t change anything. They have a 2WD Mustang dyno there too.

I see they are using the SAE J1349 (2004) correction. I am using SAE Adapted correction. Switching between the two correction factors makes for a 10-12 hp difference on a car in this HP range. This puts the lower hp RalliArts that I have dynoed in his acceptable factual legal range.

Why does Lightspeed use the lower correction factor? I am guessing that it is to make the numbers more in line with what numbers their Mustang dyno puts out.

Why do I use the higher reading SAE Adapted correction? Mostly it is the correction that puts my numbers in line with the vast majority of the AWD dynos in my neighborhood. 2 AWD Dynojets, one Dynomite, 2 Dynapacks using the same correction, and only one relevant Mustang dyno.

I dug around the net and found one smart sounding pencilgeek guy proclaiming the SAE Adapted numbers are the ones to use for a Dynapack.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=243042

Dave Coleman formerly of SCC magazine now heads up Mazda USA’s R&D department. They use my dyno for AWD cars since the Dynojet they normally use is a 2WD model. Dave took a car straight from the Dynojet directly to our Dynapack for back to back dynos carefully logging temperatures and really geeking out on the consistency of the runs. He averaged out the data he got from the two and they were within 1%. That gave me some confidence in my numbers. Suzuki USA also pays to use my dyno for testing.

Granted there is a whole conspiracy theory around Dynojet numbers being inflated to begin with. But they remain the gold standard of chassis dyno numbers. You get a shoulder to cry on from just about any message board if you go posting up your Mustang dyno numbers. “But look at the gains! That is what matters! On a Dynojet it would be xxx” Just don't get us started on that one down in Florida ;-)

Otherwise I have no idea what is the correct legal and factual without huffing fumes correction factor other than: SAE Adapted is what works for me in my country. I am going to call Dynapack tomorrow for more insight on what the difference between the two standards is.

Secondchance… can I have one? I promise that I will also make you a set of dyno charts using your correction factor. I really think I am not one of the droids you are looking for. Maybe we can swap TTP stories some day.

Mike W

[rschottr]

I figured out why Secondchance is upset. He was dyno'd on the Canadia dyno which, given current exchange rates, is 8% less (226 x .08 = 208), thus his 208whp baseline. So there you go Secondchance, you really have the same horsepower, just corrected for your country ;-)

[Ladogaboy]

I figured out why Secondchance is upset. He was dyno'd on the Canadia dyno which, given current exchange rates, is 8% less (226 x .08 = 208), thus his 208whp baseline. So there you go Secondchance, you really have the same horsepower, just corrected for your country ;-)

Bahahahahaha! :D

[MTZL]

^ lol, Thats it right there exchange rates!!! ROFL!

[razorlab]

There are maybe 3 AWD Dynapacks here in So Cal that all got bought about the same time. All read pretty much the same. Churches Automotive here in So Cal has an older one that reads super high compared to this batch. We run SAE correction which I believe is standard. Some of the early Dynapacks had a physical calibration test and method. But that was years ago. Mine is all sealed up and under the program's menu the "calibration" tab is locked out with a password.

I am still all butt hurt over the TTP comparison honestly. Scott _hates_ me. In fact he is the only other person that has jumped all over my posts with equal veracity :-P Some of the message board dog fights I had with him were epic. The best threads were deleted somehow, back when they were selling the Z-Chip. God killed a kitten when I got lumped in with him.

In other news... Club RalliArt now has it's first (if small) flame war!

Mike W

TTP hates everyone that says anything about his "Mustang" dyno reading higher than a dynojet.

Ralliarts baseline 220whp+ on his mustang stock. That is more than RA's baseline on AMS's dynojet. 190whp on our Mustang.

Scott@TTP cracks me up.

[Ladogaboy]

I know HBSpeed usually works with Subarus, but I wonder if he has any numbers for stock Ralliarts on his dyno.

[Ladogaboy]

so does mike at rre, they both like to think that these inflated numbers are correct. I find it sad that they take the victim approach on something like this, when im trying to educate the community to the lies and bullshit. Apparently feeding the power hungry fake power fills pockets.

Please explain to us all mikey boy, how outside your 120k waste of money, and peter pan at ttp's pixie dust dyno, why almost no one comes close stock to these outlandish numbers?

Secondchance, you might want to reconsider thinking that bryan@gst's post somehow validats what you have to say. Mustang dynos are VERY stingy. His point is that TTP's "Mustang" dyno reads the same as a dynojet, which is a little more generous. No one, however, is claiming that dynojet's numbers, though normally higher than a Mustang's, are wrong.

This guy is another reason why I would really like to see what HBSpeed has to say. RRE = one of the most respected names in Mitsubishi tuning. HBSpeed = one of the most respected names in Subaru tuning. My guess: Their dyno numbers for stock Ralliarts are very close.

[MikeW-RRE]

Can you comment on the SAE correction factor differences part?

Are stock EVO Xs dynoing at 245 to 258 truthful? Or is that madness too?

Did Lightspeed waste money on their Dynapack?

Can you post up your Lightspeed Dynapack dyno?


How about this fly-by-night liar and scammer with these BS numbers?
http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=75325.0
201 on a low reading Mustang dyno? ;-)


Mike W

[TheBlackBeast]

yours obviously mentally retarded, simple math + actual dyno sheets + general concesus make it obvious what the power is.

im not gonna sit here and argue with your retarded self, you can think all you want that your car is 264 whp, thats your fault, and will ultimate make you look really stupid.

as for mike. Grab a brain please, you work at rre and u expect me to believe you think this car is REALLY 226 whp. I know it must be hard to imagine with the bloated rrm ego you have that someone out there may have a clue as to whats going on with these cars other then you, but i promise, there really is.

a GENEROUS dyno would post this car at 200 whp.

your 226 whp claim itard makes for a 4% loss on the power train? please explain that one genius. Or how about the only 20 whp difference from the evo, do you think mitsu is that stupid? my god.
Wow, flames like that combined with your eloquent grammar give me pause...

...and makes me realize you really don't know who mike @ rre really is in this community. Mike will readily throw around hard numbers in a flash but I have yet to see you utter anything other than angry rhetoric, nor do you answer any of his reasonable questions (i.e.- hardware used for dyno and SAE correction factors used).

[razorlab]

so does mike at rre, they both like to think that these inflated numbers are correct. I find it sad that they take the victim approach on something like this, when im trying to educate the community to the lies and bullshit. Apparently feeding the power hungry fake power fills pockets.

Please explain to us all mikey boy, how outside your 120k waste of money, and peter pan at ttp's pixie dust dyno, why almost no one comes close stock to these outlandish numbers?

Wait, hold on, let's back up a minute. I don't want to get in a argument at all, I just want to understand this a little bit better.

What is the problem you are having with Mike@RRE's dyno? He is bloating his gains from stock to tune? Or his baseline numbers are bloated? It baselined a Ralliart differently than the dynapak you baselined on?

As mike linked above, every car will baseline differently, it's just how it is. We have had three ralliarts on our mustang dyno. One baselined 192whp, another baselined 196, and the third baselined 201whp. All 100% stock. Mitsubishi's are crazy like that. We have had Evo 9's baseline stock from 220whp to 246whp, 8's from 195 to 215, Evo 10's from 208 to 243.

So anyway, what is the problem you are having with Mike?

[MikeW-RRE]

OK, that was one out of 4 questions answered. Anything on the other three questions?

Can you comment on the SAE correction factor differences part?

Are stock EVO Xs dynoing at 245 to 258 truthful? Or is that madness too?

Did Lightspeed waste money on their Dynapack?

Comment on the GST baseline Mustang numbers?
http://www.socalevo.net/forum/index.php?topic=75325.0


Mike W

[TRUSTcompany9000]

Well we don't need those flame wars here, this is a happy place :)

As for Mike, keep up the good work, I think you guys are doing quality stuff.

[Ladogaboy]

Well we don't need those flame wars here, this is a happy place :)


I think I know where we can all go for drama. ;)

[brads09lancerRA]

Are stock EVO Xs dynoing at 245 to 258 truthful? Or is that madness too?

Mike W

http://www.lightspeedinnovations.com/upload/09STIvs08EVOX%20(3).JPG

This is a dyno sheet of an 09 STi vs 08 Evo X (both stock it says) from Lightspeeds website. If I'm reading it correctly the stock Evo X is dyno'd at 245.9hp which is about what u said your dyno says for an X which would mean that your dynopack and Lightspeeds are not as far off as seconchace very clearly has stated numerous times.