AMS TBE + AEM intake + GST Map?

[rm_you]

I have a 2011 Ralliart and I'm looking at buying the following parts:

From AMS:
AMS Mitsubishi Ralliart Twin Tip Cat-Back Exhaust (http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/ams-mitsubishi-lancer-ralliart-cy4a-twin-tip-cat-back-exhaust-system.html) (with high flow cat option)
AMS 09+ Lancer Ralliart Small Battery kit (http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/AMS-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Ralliart-Small-Battery-Kit.html) (isn't really relevant I guess) <--- Edit: cutting this, don't see the point right now
AMS 2009+ Lancer Ralliart FMIC & Upper Intercooler Pipe Combo (http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/AMS-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Ralliart-Intercooler-and-Upper-pipe-Combo.html)
AMS Boost Pill for Evo X and RalliArt with SST Transmission (http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/AMS-Mitsubishi-Lancer-Ralliart-Boost-Pill.html) (edit: confirmed the same as the GST Pill)

From AEM:
2011 MITSUBISHI Lancer Evolution 2.0L L4 F/I - All (Cold Air Intake) (http://www.aemintakes.com/search/product.aspx?Prod=21-698C)

And then using the "Stock RA + BoostPill upgrade + TBE + AEM Intake" map provided by GST here (it looks like they do excellent work):
http://forums.evolutionm.net/09-ralliart-engine-turbo-drivetrain/443880-2009-lancer-ralliart-gst-basemap.html

My question is, should those parts work with that map? AFAIK, the only part where a different brand affects the map significantly is the intake, which is why I'm looking at the AEM intake instead of the AMS version... Is that right, or am I completely off base? I'm basing that from what I read here: http://forums.evolutionm.net/09-ralliart-engine-turbo-drivetrain/543539-safe-use-mod-map-thread.html and the fact that while Bryan specifies a particular intake brand, he doesn't specify anything about the TBE.

I'm very new to this and am having friends help me with the installation (I want to really *do* this, not just pay to have it done for me). I am still very interested in learning, and I am thinking that from what I have seen here already, you guys could be an excellent resource.

I'm not particularly worried about getting the parts on, just how the map will perform (and whether it is possible to do any long-term damage while doing initial testing/logging). I assume at some point I should go get a real pro-tune, but I am hoping this will work in the meantime.

I would just get the AMS intake and use the map *they* provide for "stage 2", except they want $450 just to email me the map file (this seems a bit ridiculous to me after seeing most maps sell for $50-100 or come with actual flashing hardware like the Cobb AccessPort, which I own). Am I wrong about the price being a bit steep? I've seen the question asked before on these forums and the general opinion seemed to be "go with a GST map", which is why I am making this post to begin with. Also, I figure I can just bank that $450 and it will pay for a whole lot of the pro-tune I do eventually get, or I can donate some of it to GST for providing a good map and not trying to rip me off in the process. :)

[crak]

for the TBE part (Turbo Back Exhaust) You need more then just the Catalytic Back Exhaust system. Turbo Back means exactly that, everything from the turbo and back.

you need a Down Pipe coming off the turbo and a test pipe or resonated test pipe or a high flow catalytic pipe. So DP>TP>CAT-BACK = TBE

Also, why do you think you need a battery kit?

[rm_you]

for the TBE part (Turbo Back Exhaust) You need more then just the Catalytic Back Exhaust system. Turbo Back means exactly that, everything from the turbo and back.

you need a Down Pipe coming off the turbo and a test pipe or resonated test pipe or a high flow catalytic pipe. So DP>TP>CAT-BACK = TBE

Note that the Cat-back system I listed *also* comes with the high flow cat. I wasn't aware I needed yet another part for the TBE, thought it was just the catback + HFC. As usual, correct me if I misunderstand.

Edit: The list of parts I have came primarily from the Stage Kits on AMS and from one of my friends calling them and asking them a ton of questions, one of which was "Will the stage1+2 kits yield the full TBE or just CBE?" to which they responded that it *was* a full TBE system... So if they are screwing with me, I'd like to know.

Edit 2: From the GST basemap post, this is at the top:

Stock RA + BoostPill upgrade + TBE:= BoostPill Upgrade and a Turbo Back Exhaust system which means a high flow cat (or test pipe) plus a catback. A downpipe upgrade is ok but is not necessary. People that ONLY have catbacks should use the Stock RA + BoostPill upgrade BaseMap.

Stock RA + BoostPill upgrade + TBE + AEM Intake:= BoostPill Upgrade and a Turbo Back Exhaust system plus an AEM intake. This means the AEM intake for the Ralliart ONLY. No other full intakes will work correctly with this base map!

That leads me to believe that I am ok with just the catback and HFC for the TBE map (plus the AEM intake, obviously).

Also, why do you think you need a battery kit?

Like I said, I didn't think the small battery kit was relevant, but I included it since it is in my parts list. Also, this is copy/pasted from the AMS order sheet as it was sent to me (back when I was going to do the intake from AMS as well):

"1 Intake With bungs AMS 09+ Lancer Ralliart Short ram intake POLISHED WITH BREATHER BUNGS ***AMS SMALL BATTERY KIT REQUIRED FOR INSTALLATION AND ALSO A BASE FLASH**"

Maybe it has to do with a space issue? Though I don't quite get why, since the battery doesn't look like it's in a location that would be used by the new intake, but again I could be wrong (I don't necessarily trust my own judgement yet here). Originally I was just doing AMS Stage 1 + Stage 2 (they have premade kits) but the pricing is a bit wonky so I had them split it into components.

If there is *really* no reason for me to do the small battery kit (I mean, it does shave off quite a bit of weight) then I will just cut it out of my order. Let me know what you think.

Anyway, thanks for the reply!

[crak]

Cutting out a battery to lower weight wont give you more hp:/

The best thing to do is to worry about weight after all the power upgrades are installed. Thats when you start shaving weight off to increase times. But its your call, im sure the battery will look cool!

As AMS said you need the battery......I could be wrong, but why would you need a battery with more amps? Its just to start your car anyways......maybe do more research on it as to why.

Yeah witht he HFC and the cat-back you will be find with the TBE.

I am saying maybe look into a downpipe that has a wide enough bore for the rest of your exhaust. I dont know how wide the bore is on the upgrade exhaust your about to get:/

But all in all good luck! sounds like a great system!

[razorlab]

Yes the "Stock RA + BoostPill upgrade + TBE + AEM Intake" will work fine with catback + HFC like you are getting.

The battery kit. Just buy the AMS mini battery tie down for $49:

http://www.amsperformance.com/cart/ams-mitsubishi-lancer-ralliart-small-battery-kit-with-no-battery-tray-only.html

Then buy the same battery AMS uses, the Hawker Genesis G12V16Ah10EP for $107:

http://www.portablepower.com/genesis_g12v16ah10ep-p-210.html

Save yourself about $60

[rm_you]

Thanks Bryan! Yet more proof that you are an asset to the community (and an awesome guy to boot)! Just out of curiosity, what parts did you use for the TBE system in your test car(s)? And is there any reason I shouldn't just order parts from *you*? At least it'd be a small way of supporting your work!

Also, I'm beginning to think AMS is a bit shady. Or at least, they aren't nearly as dedicated to helping their customers get what they need as some other shops (like GST). Multiple phone conversations, a ton of research on *my part* to get THEIR pricing straightened out, and they want $450 just to email me a copy of their pre-made map... Maybe AMS is shady, or maybe Bryan@GST is just spoiling us. :P

Cutting out a battery to lower weight wont give you more hp:/

The best thing to do is to worry about weight after all the power upgrades are installed. Thats when you start shaving weight off to increase times.

Good advice. I'll keep that in mind. I'm equally confused about why the smaller battery is necessary. I'll probably cut it from my order completely.

I am saying maybe look into a downpipe that has a wide enough bore for the rest of your exhaust. I dont know how wide the bore is on the upgrade exhaust your about to get:/

Yeah, from what I can tell, upgrading it won't make much of a difference. Especially this useful post: http://forums.evolutionm.net/09-ralliart-engine-turbo-drivetrain/576910-info-modding-your-ra.html

He mentions: Downpipe upgrades are more complicated to install and net very little gains for the Ralliart. Why is that?

Remember that all these systems are there to function WITH the turbocharger. The factory Ralliart turbocharger is VERY small and has limited flow capacity. Sure, upgrading the whole exhaust system will flow more air, but the stock RA turbo can only flow so much. the factory downpipe doesn't restrict much flow compared to the output that the RA turbo is capable of.

But all in all good luck! sounds like a great system!

Thanks, looking forward to getting all this stuff figured out and actually ordering the parts and putting them on!

[razorlab]

Thanks Bryan! Yet more proof that you are an asset to the community (and an awesome guy to boot)! Just out of curiosity, what parts did you use for the TBE system in your test car(s)? And is there any reason I shouldn't just order parts from *you*? At least it'd be a small way of supporting your work!

I don't sell parts. We put these basemaps out (Richard and I) because we like giving back to the community.

Exhaust is basically an exhaust when it comes to the base maps, as long as it's larger then stock and flows decently, it should work just fine.

Also, I'm beginning to think AMS is a bit shady. Or at least, they aren't nearly as dedicated to helping their customers get what they need as some other shops (like GST). Multiple phone conversations, a ton of research on *my part* to get THEIR pricing straightened out, and they want $450 just to email me a copy of their pre-made map... Maybe AMS is shady, or maybe Bryan@GST is just spoiling us. :P

AMS isn't shady, they have done a ton of R&D and innovation over the years, they just operate a business, not a charity, so they charge for their services.

[crak]

@rm_you: The reason I got a UR downpipe was because in the future I will be getting a bigger turbo and install that downpipe is a bitch. So, while i did the exhaust I put it in. I might sell it later and just get the UR long down pipe that connects directly to the O2 waste if i have money to burn.

All up to you!

C

EDIT: Also, the GST map, Richard and I (and currently) think that we completely removed the O2 CEL problem for ever with a test GST basemap. So, with his TBE tunes where you put in a new pipe will now give no more CEL's yay! After a few more tests on my part. It should be good to go for future TBE users getting the rear O2 sensor P0420 problem.

[rm_you]

I don't sell parts. We put these basemaps out (Richard and I) because we like giving back to the community.

AMS isn't shady, they have done a ton of R&D and innovation over the years, they just operate a business, not a charity, so they charge for their services.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply that they were shady just because they charge for their maps -- I realize not everything in life is free, and your maps are just a really cool bonus. :)

What I was referring to was that they overcharged me by quite a lot at first on my order (to the tune of $800 or so), and when I made them aware of the issue they "fixed it" but were still charging me more than the prices they had listed on their website by a non-trivial amount... I had to spend quite a while on the phone getting the prices changed to *what they advertised*. Also, they were telling me the small battery kit was a necessary upgrade to work with their intake (unless I'm reading that wrong), which seems a bit sketchy (as discussed above with crak). ALSO also, they advertised their kit as a "full TBE" to my friend on the phone (the one who is advising me on this project) which I'm hearing isn't true unless it includes a downpipe (maybe there is some sort of definition issue here). Maybe their engineering / R&D department is great and just their sales is sketchy...

Anyway, I will probably continue with my plan to purchase the TBE / boostpill / FMIC from them, without the battery, and get the AEM intake as per your map. Then I can donate some to you for your help. :D


@rm_you: The reason I got a UR downpipe was because in the future I will be getting a bigger turbo and install that downpipe is a bitch. So, while i did the exhaust I put it in.
Got it, that makes sense. I'll probably be fine with my little turbo for quite a while, as most of my acceleration is low-end anyway.



EDIT: Maybe I am just a dumb newbie, but I do still think charging near as much for a mapfile as for a custom local dyno-tune is a bit excessive. I was expecting *some* sort of discount for just needing the mapfile via email (I already paid for the necessary equipment to flash my ECU), as opposed to sending them my ECU and them flashing it and shipping it back, but it is the exact same price.

[crak]

EDIT: Maybe I am just a dumb newbie, but I do still think charging near as much for a mapfile as for a custom local dyno-tune is a bit excessive. I was expecting *some* sort of discount for just needing the mapfile via email (I already paid for the necessary equipment to flash my ECU), as opposed to sending them my ECU and them flashing it and shipping it back, but it is the exact same price.

Makes sense in my eyes too. But then again when so few can do what many want, you can charge as much as you like. Supply and demands my good sir

[rm_you]

Supply and demands my good sir

True that. Well, thanks for the advice!

So, it is looking less likely I will go with AMS for parts now, not because I don't trust them, but because I just found out that their exhaust system uses a lot of slip-joints, which I have been told to stay away from if possible (and comparable parts from UltimateRacing don't use them). Also, I think I found a guy selling used EvoX FMIC/pipes that are a bolt-on replacement just about equivalent to the AMS part, but way cheaper. No point in being wasteful!

[crak]

I have EVO X pipes, they are not as shiny, but they get the job done. You can paint them yourself if you want:) (which i did not do, becuase I am lazy)

[rm_you]

Update: found some deals locally, so ended up going with a veritable parts sampler...

FMIC/pipes: barely used EvoX parts from a guy on craigslist
Catback: used AMS from a guy on craigslist (the single-tip version, so no slip-joints -- can't even find it on their website but he had it for cheap and it looks legit)
intake: AEM intake as planned (was $230 online at lightning motorsports incl. free shipping!)
High Flow Cat: Ultimate-Racing
boost pill: Ultimate-Racing (doesn't really matter who I get it from apparently, so just grabbed it along with the HFC)

Edit: Ah, I forgot that I also picked up the EvoX BoV along with the FMIC as an added bonus! Used parts are SO cheap...

Can't wait to get over to my friend's garage and get it all on!

[BravoZero]

Update: found some deals locally, so ended up going with a veritable parts sampler...

FMIC/pipes: barely used EvoX parts from a guy on craigslist
Catback: used AMS from a guy on craigslist (the single-tip version, so no slip-joints -- can't even find it on their website but he had it for cheap and it looks legit)
intake: AEM intake as planned (was $230 online at lightning motorsports incl. free shipping!)
High Flow Cat: Ultimate-Racing
boost pill: Ultimate-Racing (doesn't really matter who I get it from apparently, so just grabbed it along with the HFC)

Can't wait to get over to my friend's garage and get it all on!

Awesome, keep us updated! Start a build thread as well if you want.

[crak]

Catback: used AMS from a guy on craigslist (the single-tip version, so no slip-joints -- can't even find it on their website but he had it for cheap and it looks legit)
Can't wait to get over to my friend's garage and get it all on!

ouch! its going to look so funny with a single tip! are you sure you want a single tip?!?!

[rm_you]

ouch! its going to look so funny with a single tip! are you sure you want a single tip?!?!

Yeah I know, I wasn't expecting it when I went to meet him, since I didn't even know AMS *made* a single tip exhaust (it wasn't on their website anywhere when I was shopping)... But, I already dragged the guy out there, and I figure it was cheap enough that if i decide later I want a dual tip, I can just sell it on craigslist again. :P

Anyway, it is less weight, plenty of pipe to actually *do the job*, and no slip joints so nothing to worry about there... If anything, it's probably a better part to have, just will look a bit strange. Not ideal, but not really bad either. I'm going to put it on this week and see if it looks really dumb or not.

[BravoZero]

ouch! its going to look so funny with a single tip! are you sure you want a single tip?!?!

Plenty of people are running single tip, not that bad. You barely notice the other cutout.

[rm_you]

Here's a question... My friend is saying he thinks replacing the TBE will *require* an ECU flash. I kind of thought the only things that *required* a new map immediately were a new intake and the boost pill. I do have the Cobb AccessPort, which came with Stage 1 and Stage 2 maps, so I was planning on doing it anyway, I just wasn't sure if it was necessary immediately.

Another update: Ended up getting the HFC from Cobb instead of UR because the shipping was free, cheaper and faster. :P

[BravoZero]

A TBE itself is okay as long as you don't push the car. HOWEVER, if you also install an aftermarket boost pill, it's definitely required. Also required is if you modify the intake in any way.

[rm_you]

Ah it's ok anyway, I found the post on the Cobb forums that has newer maps for the Ralliart. Since I have the AccessPort already, it's a piece of cake to use those. They even have one for the same AEM intake, so I should be completely set -- I'll flash to Stage 2 once I get everything but the intake on it, then add the intake when it arrives and switch to the Stage 2 + AEM Intake map. I'll update when I have more stuff attached and have actually tried out one of those tunes.

Edit: OK, put the catback on it tonight, sounds SO much more like a real car now! The HFC gets here tomorrow from Cobb (did I mention that I decided to switch yet again, no longer getting the cat from UR, Cobb now). May not have time to put it on until Sunday or later. :(

[crak]

Ah it's ok anyway, I found the post on the Cobb forums that has newer maps for the Ralliart. Since I have the AccessPort already, it's a piece of cake to use those. They even have one for the same AEM intake, so I should be completely set -- I'll flash to Stage 2 once I get everything but the intake on it, then add the intake when it arrives and switch to the Stage 2 + AEM Intake map. I'll update when I have more stuff attached and have actually tried out one of those tunes.

Edit: OK, put the catback on it tonight, sounds SO much more like a real car now! The HFC gets here tomorrow from Cobb (did I mention that I decided to switch yet again, no longer getting the cat from UR, Cobb now). May not have time to put it on until Sunday or later. :(

Nice!

Yeah UR is in canada, which is nice for us up here. But summit racing has some decent parts with free shipping too. Sometimes I wish I lived in the US to get deals on free shipping.

Also, here is a question for everyone: Why do some retailers not ship to Canada when we are pretty much right across the border. They would get a ton more sales if they opened up their shipping routes.

[rm_you]

Lol yeah, I am in San Antonio, so Cobb is like a one hour drive from me. Kinda handy, free one day shipping. :)

[rm_you]

Ok, quick update:

Things I had already done:

* Replaced the catback exhaust with the AMS single tip exhaust

Things I did last night:
* Replaced the stock intake with the AEM intake
* Replaced the stock FMIC with the EvoX FMIC/pipes
* Replaced the stock BoV with the EvoX BoV

Things I have to do still:

* Replace the test pipe + cat with the Cobb catted test pipe
* Take the midpipe back off temporarily to have the resonator I bought welded in
* Replace the BoV piping with more appropriate pipes (it's a bit ghetto-rigged right now with the pieces of piping I had left over... you guys probably know approximately what I mean) since the cold-air pipe for the intake won't actually fit back on with the BoV piping in the way.
* Buy RPF1 wheels: http://www.amazon.com/Enkei-RPF1-Silver-18x8-5x114-3/dp/B007RPQX1G (still verifying +35 is going to be enough offset)
* Profit :P

So, I have the majority of the work done already. I will provide pictures in a bit (just need to wait for the light to get a bit better and go out and take some).

I flashed the Cobb Stage 1 + AEM Intake map (from their forums) and it *sounds* like it is running ok, and felt like it was running decently when I drove it back from my friend's garage, but this morning I tried to give it a bit of gas and it seems a bit "sluggish". I'm not sure exactly, but I can get up to ~60mph without too much issue but if I slam on the gas there, I'm used to it still taking off, but it revs like normal and sounds like normal and just *doesn't* go faster, besides just a tiny bit of acceleration. I'm not 100% sure what to think of that, I will have to look around and see if I fucked up any connections or something... I managed to get it to about 72mph in the short-ish distance I was accelerating, but I feel like it should be been way faster.

Do you guys have any thoughts? Could it just be that the ECU is still learning (I had only driven it about 10 miles) and is limiting things for safety? Or, did I fuck up something in the turbo piping and I'm not getting boost? Any suggestions appreciated, I'll work on getting those pics.

[crak]

is the valve a blow off valve or a by pass valve? if its the evo x stock then its cool.

Its funny you say it seems sluggish. I recall when I first put in my evo x intercooler +pipes, it seems sluggish at first. I dont know if the car needs to learn the new pipes, but it did get faster over time or it was just me.

Do you use the mesh pipe that comes right off the turbo that goes to the intercooler or is it all hard pipe? The hard pipe will not expand like the mess giving you better response, only reason why i ask

[rm_you]

is the valve a blow off valve or a by pass valve? if its the evo x stock then its cool.

It is the stock EvoX BoV, it was a direct replacement for the one that was stock on the Ralliart (looks nearly identical, except it is silver/metal instead of black/plastic).

Its funny you say it seems sluggish. I recall when I first put in my evo x intercooler +pipes, it seems sluggish at first. I dont know if the car needs to learn the new pipes, but it did get faster over time or it was just me.
Yeah, I hope so... Hoping I didn't do something wrong! :confused:

Do you use the mesh pipe that comes right off the turbo that goes to the intercooler or is it all hard pipe? The hard pipe will not expand like the mess giving you better response, only reason why i ask
I don't remember what exactly I used for that, I was working on the FMIC/LICP and my friend was working on the UICP and stuff on the top, so I think he did that bit. I'll have to look. I will get pictures in a few minutes and hopefully it will be clearer.

[crak]

it comes mesh from the stock evo x pipes. Alot of people actually upgrade to a hard pipe just for that response.

you can actually see the mesh pipe jump if you rev the engine, that's the compression building and expanding. That small jump is a fraction of the vehicle spooling to creating pressure for the throttle body. With a hard-pipe you see no jump:)

[rm_you]

Ok well, it probably doesn't matter, because I went out to take pictures and discovered that apparently I hadn't tightened the fastener on the main pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body, and it had popped off... SO YEAH. Dumb. Anyway, shoved it back on and finding a screwdriver so I can tighten it down... Should fix my problem, I think. ;)

I blame the darkness and the late hour at which I finished working last night. :cool:

[BravoZero]

You said Cobb AP? There's your first problem. Get rid of it, get yourself a laptop, boost pill, Tactrix cable and ECUflash, and load the GST basemap to your car instead. Razorlab has plenty of basemaps for different options, even one for a full turboback and AEM intake with boost pill.

The second thing is yes, you will notice a bit of sluggishness when first installing the X intercooler setup. Mine did that but once the computer learned to compensate for it, the sluggishness went away. Another thing that will help is getting a hard UICP, that crappy rubber piping does expand, I've seen it do it under load.

[rm_you]

I have seen a lot of bashing on the Cobb AP on these forums (a significant portion by *you*, in fact) but I have so far been quite pleased with my AccessPort... I was going to use the GST map and get a tactrix cable, but Cobb actually released new updated maps that supposedly work well with my kit -- and I haven't had problems so far that I can attribute to a bad map. I was even looking for a *real* good reason to switch, other than the price difference, but I couldn't find anything here besides your obvious dislike for their system. Maybe you could give me a good set of reasons to switch? I actually find the AP to be quite convenient and very simple to use, I don't have to haul my laptop around, I can flash anywhere at any time just by reaching into my glove box and grabbing the AP...

I am fairly certain my current problem is completely unrelated to the map, in fact, as I posted above -- just a dumb mistake on my part forgetting to finish tightening down a hose clamp.

[crak]

Ok well, it probably doesn't matter, because I went out to take pictures and discovered that apparently I hadn't tightened the fastener on the main pipe from the intercooler to the throttle body, and it had popped off... SO YEAH. Dumb. Anyway, shoved it back on and finding a screwdriver so I can tighten it down... Should fix my problem, I think. ;)

I blame the darkness and the late hour at which I finished working last night. :cool:

is that the reason for it giving you no power? lol, maybe you had loss of compression

[rm_you]

is that the reason for it giving you no power? lol, maybe you had loss of compression

Yeah, tightened it back up and drove around a bit on my way to lunch, and yes, it fixed it. That would definitely explain why I wasn't getting any boost... :P

Also, found these wheels used for really cheap from a guy locally, going to go check them out today or tomorrow to make sure he didn't crack them or curb-rash the hell out of them or something, but they seem like a good bet.

http://www.mann-engineering.com/products/prodrive-pff7-wheel-speedline-18x8-5x1143-et51-silver
http://www.mann-engineering.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product_full/Prodrive_PFF7_Silver_edit_small_0.JPG

[Drew]

Are you going to get spacers, or are you fine with recessed wheels?

[Insane11RA]

How much for the prodrives?

[rm_you]

Are you going to get spacers, or are you fine with recessed wheels?

I don't think I'll need to? They're +50 offset, but they're wider, so by my calculations they are going to end up being just about the same as my stock from the outside... Unless I am doing these calculations wrong, which is possible (wheel/tire size calculations always confuse me).

How much for the prodrives?

Don't have a final price yet, I wanted to see them first before I agreed to anything.

[Drew]

I don't think I'll need to? They're +50 offset, but they're wider, so by my calculations they are going to end up being just about the same as my stock from the outside... Unless I am doing these calculations wrong, which is possible (wheel/tire size calculations always confuse me).

No, they will be out about .3 inches more than the stockers, but about .7 inches short of the stance the Evo X enkies give us, so they are kind of in between. If the inset of the stock ones don't bother you, then these won't.

[rm_you]

No, they will be out about .3 inches more than the stockers, but about .7 inches short of the stance the Evo X enkies give us, so they are kind of in between. If the inset of the stock ones don't bother you, then these won't.

Honestly the stock wheels look fairly close to flush to me, so maybe I am either:

a) blind
b) don't know what real "flush" looks like
c) unaffected by flushness

:)

[BravoZero]

Just for reference, the stock wheels are 18x7" et46. So going with a wider wheel is helpful in itself, but going in to a 50 offset might look odd. I'd personally go no higher than a 45 offset. My wheels are 18x8 et45, with 235/40-18 tires. They're not flush, but they are more so than the OEM wheels were despite being one inch thinner.

EDIT: The page for the wheels say they're et51, not 50.

Found this on EvoM... http://forums.evolutionm.net/09-ralliart-brakes-wheels-suspension/414037-2009-lancer-ralliart-sedan-ra-sportback-wheels-tires-fitment.html

18x8 +48 will = fronts will be closer to being stock and rears will be closer to being stock
Inner Clearance: 15mm LESS Outer Face Position: 11mm MORE
Tires: 235/40 18 no rubbing issues with stock height.

So use that as judgement for your wheel choice. Going with a 50 or 51 offset is really going to look weird with this car IMO.

[Drew]

Honestly the stock wheels look fairly close to flush to me, so maybe I am either:

a) blind
b) don't know what real "flush" looks like
c) unaffected by flushness

:)

Here you go. Visuals always work better...

Stock wheels on an RA
http://img.ehowcdn.com/article-new/ehow/images/a06/87/k8/information-pitbull-boxer-mix-dogs-800x800.jpg

Close to flush or flush wheels on an RA
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000593913/polls_pitbulls_1_3812_259780_poll_xlarge.jpeg

HELLA FLUSH YO!
http://i676.photobucket.com/albums/vv128/redog_2009/funkyleg.jpg


I personally much prefer flush, or close to it.

[caper6]

You said Cobb AP? There's your first problem. Get rid of it, get yourself a laptop, boost pill, Tactrix cable and ECUflash, and load the GST basemap to your car instead. Razorlab has plenty of basemaps for different options, even one for a full turboback and AEM intake with boost pill.

The second thing is yes, you will notice a bit of sluggishness when first installing the X intercooler setup. Mine did that but once the computer learned to compensate for it, the sluggishness went away. Another thing that will help is getting a hard UICP, that crappy rubber piping does expand, I've seen it do it under load.

yes I agree,I was all cobb cobb cobb now thanks to the guys on here I'll be running brians map and bought a tactrix 2.0 and will be putting my cobb ap under my rear tire,with a bit....lot of direction from the guys here I have almost everything I need.

[rm_you]

yes I agree,I was all cobb cobb cobb now thanks to the guys on here I'll be running brians map and bought a tactrix 2.0 and will be putting my cobb ap under my rear tire,with a bit....lot of direction from the guys here I have almost everything I need.

Yeah, ok... You still didn't say WHY though. I'm not all "cobb cobb cobb", I'm not particularly attached to any brand name, I just want to know *what the practical advantages are* of one over the other. Right now, Cobb seems easier to use, and I don't know what I'd gain by switching to Tactrix and Brian's map... If there *are* gains, I would seriously love to hear them, but no one actually says anything practical... Just sounds like religious fervor to me, which makes me less likely to take you seriously.

Please provide me facts. I am serious. I am totally open to being convinced to switch, but not by the same empty ranting I have seen all over this forum.

[BravoZero]

Simple. Bryan knows the Ralliart inside and out, especially the SST transmission.

Cobb does not. They make their tunes just based on engine performance, not taking into account how to tune *properly* to preserve the SST. Bryan's maps not only unlock more potential from the engine, but he does it in the way that's safe for the SST. I have yet to see one person have a transmission failure that's related to his maps, or any major problems at all. However I've seen a lot of people complain about the Stage 2 maps for Cobb.

Also something to consider... with the Cobb AP, you're limited to what you can do with it. Sure it's easy to use, but the easiest things in life aren't always the best. Whereas with using a Tactrix cable, a laptop and Bryan's basemap, you can monitor and log just about anything you want with the car. If you want to get detailed information on how the car is running, you can. Even monitoring SST temperatures, clutch slip, etc. I'd like to see the Cobb AP come close to that.

Last thing to consider... Cobb mainly deals with Subaru's, it's what they excel at. That in itself should say that Cobb doesn't care too much about the other manufacturers.

So to answer your question, if you care about how your car runs and you want to run more power in a SAFE manner, and still have the ability to accurately monitor how it's running, switch from the Cobb to Bryan's maps.

[Drew]

Please provide me facts. I am serious. I am totally open to being convinced to switch, but not by the same empty ranting I have seen all over this forum.

How often do you switch between maps? What you need to think about is how happy you are with your performance right now. Do I think that Razorlab's base tunes will give you a significant power jump from the cobb tume? No. But one "FACT" is that Bryan and Rich know a CRAP TON about the TC-SST. They have selflessly put in man weeks studying the tuning of not just the engine, but the transmission as well. That is something that you really need to keep in mind. Either one can give you more power, but I trust Bryan's TC-SST experience over a Cobb tune any day. The other big factor that people weigh is cost. Since you already own a Cobb, that is a mute point. But frankly, the AP can do a few things easier than using the GST basemaps. To me, those few things, like valet mode and switching between tunes faster, are not worth the extra money and peace of mind of having the benefit of alot of knowledge in the TC-SST. Just my opinion.

[rm_you]

How often do you switch between maps? What you need to think about is how happy you are with your performance right now. Do I think that Razorlab's base tunes will give you a significant power jump from the Cobb tune? No. But one "FACT" is that Bryan and Rich know a CRAP TON about the TC-SST. They have selflessly put in man weeks studying the tuning of not just the engine, but the transmission as well. That is something that you really need to keep in mind. Either one can give you more power, but I trust Bryan's TC-SST experience over a Cobb tune any day. The other big factor that people weigh is cost. Since you already own a Cobb, that is a mute point. But frankly, the AP can do a few things easier than using the GST basemaps. To me, those few things, like valet mode and switching between tunes faster, are not worth the extra money and peace of mind of having the benefit of a lot of knowledge in the TC-SST. Just my opinion.

Thanks! This post and Bravo's post above actually provide a possible legitimate reason to switch (though to Bravo's point about monitoring/logging: I can do that from the Cobb AP as well -- or via EvoScan, as I have access to a cheap Bluetooth ODB2 dongle that works for logging purposes). I would like to hear from Cobb, at least to hear what they have to say on the matter... They have put out more maps recently on their forums, but I don't know how much they deal with the SST.

I ended up cancelling my whole order from AMS and returning everything they sold me (I may post a rant about them later -- let's just say I will never buy from or recommend them again) so I still don't have a boost pill. I'd have to buy one of those from somewhere, and then maybe I could post my Cobb AP on the marketplace here or on the EvoM forums. For now though, it seems to be working just fine, so I'm in no rush... I guess if I can switch easily, it wouldn't hurt. I will look into it more.

[rm_you]

Here you go. Visuals always work better...

<random funny dog pictures>

I personally much prefer flush, or close to it.

Yes, managed to get me to laugh this morning. :P
Seriously though, if someone has good visual examples, maybe that would help me understand what's going on here.

My wheels are 18x8 et45, with 235/40-18 tires. They're not flush, but they are more so than the OEM wheels were despite being one inch thinner.

Found this on EvoM... http://forums.evolutionm.net/09-ralliart-brakes-wheels-suspension/414037-2009-lancer-ralliart-sedan-ra-sportback-wheels-tires-fitment.html

18x8 +48 will = fronts will be closer to being stock and rears will be closer to being stock
Inner Clearance: 15mm LESS Outer Face Position: 11mm MORE
Tires: 235/40 18 no rubbing issues with stock height.

So use that as judgement for your wheel choice. Going with a 50 or 51 offset is really going to look weird with this car IMO.

Well, I was going with 245/40 tires (a friend's recommendation), so they will be a little bit wider too -- and that actually makes me wonder if I would need to space them a little bit to avoid contact on the inside. The other option is the Enkei PF01's I was looking at which would be +45, but I'd be getting those new so it'd cost quite a bit more for wheels that are actually cheaper than the PFF7s new...

According to the rimsntires spec app:


Suspension: Package is 20 mm (0.8'') closer to suspension/brakes components. Make sure that you have enough room for that. If not, consider lower offset, narrower tires or using spacers.
Fenders: Package will stick out 10 mm (0.4'') farther. Acceptable for most cars.


Measured with calipers the other day, and 0.8" on the inside seems fine -- I think there was nearly twice that amount of space available -- but I don't know how much margin for error I'd need to leave. Obviously I can't fill 100% of the empty space. :)

[Drew]

Seriously though, if someone has good visual examples, maybe that would help me understand what's going on here.

Here is my car, on 19x8.5 38mm offset. The wheels are close to flush, meaning the rims come all the way out to the fender. This gives the car a wider stance. If you aren't really interested in that, the wheels you are looking at will work perfectly. As a point of reference, the wheels on my car will "poke out" about an inch farther than the stock wheels and about 0.75" farther than the 51mm offset wheels you are looking at.
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m575/mrtwystir/IMG_0320.jpg
http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m575/mrtwystir/IMG_0323.jpg

[BravoZero]

Drew, try some different pics. The black on black with black wheel wells doesn't seem to really illustrate the flushness. Maybe try taking a closeup.

[Drew]

Drew, try some different pics. The black on black with black wheel wells doesn't seem to really illustrate the flushness. Maybe try taking a closeup.

Still doesn't really show up. The black on black is what it is. I would have to dirty up my rims to give it more contrast..lol. Maybe some shiny rim guys can show up :D

[rm_you]

Well, I took a look at the guy's Prodrives, he wanted $450 for the set, had some minor dings and stuff... Not too bad, but I just don't know if I want to deal with the +51 and I like the PF01s better anyway. I will probably just order the PF01s at 18x8 +45, along with some Starspec Z1s from Tirerack, and have a local tire shop swap my TPMS over. That'll run me like $2200 I think, but prolly worth it.

[crak]

Still doesn't really show up. The black on black is what it is. I would have to dirty up my rims to give it more contrast..lol. Maybe some shiny rim guys can show up :D

dirty it up!!! +1

[rm_you]

Well, here is an album from a guy's post on EvoM, he has 18x8 at +45:
http://imgur.com/a/MFNnt

Personally I think the wheels don't look that good, but it seems like pretty good proof that the fitment should be fine.

[BravoZero]

Well, here is an album from a guy's post on EvoM, he has 18x8 at +45:
http://imgur.com/a/MFNnt

Personally I think the wheels don't look that good, but it seems like pretty good proof that the fitment should be fine.

Keep in mind he's at stock height. Once you lower the car and leave the camber untouched, the wheels will stick out a bit from the bottom, resulting in negative camber. If you want to be perfectly flush, you need to be able to adjust front and rear camber, roll the rear fenders, and use spacers with anything higher than et40 offset.

[rm_you]

Keep in mind he's at stock height. Once you lower the car and leave the camber untouched, the wheels will stick out a bit from the bottom, resulting in negative camber.

I don't quite understand the obsession with lowering... I mean, I guess it moves the center of gravity closer to the ground, which is good? My problem is, I tend to drive pretty aggressively, and I'm not going to slow down to 5mph for every little speed-bump, which it seems is necessary when lowered with aggressive wheel fitments. I'm perfectly happy with my car at stock height. :)

I actually am also thinking I'll end up doing +40 instead of +45 anyway.

[BravoZero]

I don't quite understand the obsession with lowering... I mean, I guess it moves the center of gravity closer to the ground, which is good? My problem is, I tend to drive pretty aggressively, and I'm not going to slow down to 5mph for every little speed-bump, which it seems is necessary when lowered with aggressive wheel fitments. I'm perfectly happy with my car at stock height. :)

I actually am also thinking I'll end up doing +40 instead of +45 anyway.

If you're happy with stock height, then a set of OEM EvoX wheels will work as well. They're et38, with a 235/40-18 tire that's slightly stretched on the 18x8.5 inch wheel, you'll have plenty of clearance with the rear fender.

[rm_you]

If you're happy with stock height, then a set of OEM EvoX wheels will work as well. They're et38, with a 235/40-18 tire that's slightly stretched on the 18x8.5 inch wheel, you'll have plenty of clearance with the rear fender.

Well, I really like the PF01s, so I just ordered the set with some Dunlop Star Spec Z1's (18x8 +45, 235/40-18) and a new set of TPMS. Really can't wait to get them on. Managed to get Discount Tire to price-match Tirerack, came out to like $2390 with tax and install (I could have just ordered from tirerack and thrown them on the car myself, but this way if I'm feeling lazy I can stop by and have them rotated/balanced for free whenever). Still gotta find a dealer to initialize the new TPMS though. :/

Back to the original point of this thread:

I stopped by a muffler shop today (Option Muffler, in San Antonio) and got them to weld the resonator I bought into my midpipe, and throw the Cobb catted test pipe on the car while they had it on the lift. Whole thing only ran me $45. If anyone in SA is looking for a good shop, this is the place -- friendly, really fast and they definitely know what they're doing. Very high quality work. The welds they did on the midpipe look better than the welds on the rest of the exhaust! While I was in there, one of my friends actually had them fabricate a whole new midpipe for his WRX (much more complicated piece than my 3 foot, completely straight midpipe)... They do very impressive work.

Anyway, I've now got all the bits and pieces on, flashed the new Cobb Stage 2 + AEM Intake map, and it's really performing nicely. With the resonator on, it sounds much less annoying at low RPMs in the cabin, and when I really go all out it still sounds really great. That pretty much does it for what I had lined up -- I guess my next major task is going to be replacing the fuel pump and injectors and getting a map made for E85, unless you guys have other suggestions. :P

[ever12]

An update in response to the criticism of Cobb in relation to GST- Cobb's recent series of beta maps is reported to be "softer" on the SST as stated by Cobb and users who have tested the new maps out. Seems like Cobb is trying to atone for past mistakes. Just figured I'd put that out there. ;)

[Jackal]

That's great if it's true, can anyone post some solid data to back this up?

[BravoZero]

"Reported" by whom exactly? A customer service rep can tell you that it allows the SST to fly to the moon, doesn't mean we're going to take their word. Need evidence of this statement.

[rm_you]

Unfortunately, after using the original Cobb Stage1 map for almost a year, and recently switching to the new beta Stage2 map, I really couldn't say whether I think it is better or not. I don't really know what the difference would feel like. :(

The only thing I am able to tell is that this Stage 2 tune may be running a bit rich -- getting periodic backfires when I shift, which I guess are ok / expected? I'm not 100% sure whether this is as intended or if it should be leaned out a tad bit.

[BravoZero]

Gotta try the basemaps. Night and day differences, I'm sure.

[rm_you]

Gotta try the basemaps. Night and day differences, I'm sure.

Yeah, just need to find someone in San Antonio that has a Tactrix cable I can borrow (don't want to buy one if I decide to keep my Cobb AP). I'm definitely interested in comparing...

[rm_you]

I finally got my new wheels on Saturday! I do love the look of the PF01's, but I wish they were black (or blue!)... Maybe I can take care of that later (been reading about the powder-coating process weakening the metal but supposedly if I can find someone who does it reputably at VERY low temperature it should be OK). I need to get a car wash and a borrow a decent camera so I can finally get some pics posted though!

On another topic:

After a few weeks of using the AMS single-tip exhaust, I am liking the sound personally but it is just too loud for the neighborhood I live in and the place I work (I keep setting off alarms in the parking garage). I am looking at an HKS Legamax exhaust that looks really nice and is also QUIET, which would be sweet. My new challenge is the quietest exhaust I can find while not sacrificing performance. Any suggestions?

Edit: I have found quite a few that are promising for the EvoX, but I don't know if the Ralliart exhaust is compatible (I don't think it is? except maybe the axleback?) so that is a bit frustrating. Does anyone know if we can use the axleback from an EvoX?

[razorlab]

Does anyone know if we can use the axleback from an EvoX?

Nope we cannot.

[crak]

I finally got my new wheels on Saturday! I do love the look of the PF01's, but I wish they were black (or blue!)... Maybe I can take care of that later (been reading about the powder-coating process weakening the metal but supposedly if I can find someone who does it reputably at VERY low temperature it should be OK). I need to get a car wash and a borrow a decent camera so I can finally get some pics posted though!

On another topic:

After a few weeks of using the AMS single-tip exhaust, I am liking the sound personally but it is just too loud for the neighborhood I live in and the place I work (I keep setting off alarms in the parking garage). I am looking at an HKS Legamax exhaust that looks really nice and is also QUIET, which would be sweet. My new challenge is the quietest exhaust I can find while not sacrificing performance. Any suggestions?

Edit: I have found quite a few that are promising for the EvoX, but I don't know if the Ralliart exhaust is compatible (I don't think it is? except maybe the axleback?) so that is a bit frustrating. Does anyone know if we can use the axleback from an EvoX?

small bore TBE and a really thick muffler.

[rm_you]

Nope we cannot.

I have read it is just because the intake for it is at a different angle? If that is the only issue, it would be possible for me to have a midpipe fabricated at a local shop to connect, as long as it is not SO different that there are things physically blocking it.

Do you know *how different* they are, and if my thought about fabricating a midpipe to connect to an EvoX axleback is technically possible?

Edit: Now that I think about it, I feel like if this was possible some company would have made a "Ralliart to Evo midpipe" already or something. :/

small bore TBE and a really thick muffler.
Wouldn't a small-bore TBE lose me the performance gains I was trying to get in the first place? :(
If not (I may be misunderstanding), any suggestions on specific product models for this?

[crak]

Wouldn't a small-bore TBE lose me the performance gains I was trying to get in the first place? :(
If not (I may be misunderstanding), any suggestions on specific product models for this?[/QUOTE]

I have read that the gains from a larger bore are not that much. (previous post on evo m)

I have a 3 inch is its the max you should go, but it will be loud. I got 3 because I was going to get a larger turbo later. My best suggestion is to get the size the evo x has (i cant recall the size). Soemoen else might have a better suggestion, but I don't know what setup you are going for.

The benefit of a TBE doesn't come completely from the bore size, it comes from a no cat pipe. its like 90% no cat 10% bore size. The ralliart small turbo doesn't need a huge pipe to push exhaust out. If you want no sound, you going to sacrifice some performance.

[razorlab]

If you want a quiet exhaust just do what I had before. Downpipe + mini muffler test pipe + OEM STOCK catback.

Was good enough for 400+ hp and it was literally not any louder then stock.

[BravoZero]

If you want a quiet exhaust just do what I had before. Downpipe + mini muffler test pipe + OEM STOCK catback.

Was good enough for 400+ hp and it was literally not any louder then stock.

Is your V2.7 TBE basemap compatible with this setup? What about a high flow cat, would that work ok with the stock catback?

[rm_you]

If you want a quiet exhaust just do what I had before. Downpipe + mini muffler test pipe + OEM STOCK catback.

Was good enough for 400+ hp and it was literally not any louder then stock.

Is your V2.7 TBE basemap compatible with this setup? What about a high flow cat, would that work ok with the stock catback?

Yeah, I am curious -- for instance, with the Cobb maps, it says for Stage2 a full TBE is *required*. With your maps, would a high flow cat and the stock catback work for stage 2?

[razorlab]

The TBE basemap(s) are for a TBE equipped RA. ;)

[rm_you]

The TBE basemap(s) are for a TBE equipped RA. ;)

Right, that's what I thought... That's why I was confused about the way you worded your first comment. It sounded like (well, we assumed because of the high HP numbers, I think) that you were talking about using the TBE maps with just the testpipe replaced, which didn't make a lot of sense. Thanks for clarifying! :)

[razorlab]

Right, that's what I thought... That's why I was confused about the way you worded your first comment. It sounded like (well, we assumed because of the high HP numbers, I think) that you were talking about using the TBE maps with just the testpipe replaced, which didn't make a lot of sense. Thanks for clarifying! :)

My personal RA is way beyond the basemaps. ;)

[ever12]

"Reported" by whom exactly? A customer service rep can tell you that it allows the SST to fly to the moon, doesn't mean we're going to take their word. Need evidence of this statement.

Users on Cobb's forums were reporting that they notice the SST shifting smoother when running the beta maps to which Cobb responded: "The new calibrations have increased ignition timing and leaner fueling during the shifting period which makes for a 'smoother' shift."

http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/showthread.php?72383-COBB-AccessPORT-OTS-BETA-Testing-for-the-2009-2012-Lancer-Ralliart

[BravoZero]

Users on Cobb's forums were reporting that they notice the SST shifting smoother when running the beta maps to which Cobb responded: "The new calibrations have increased ignition timing and leaner fueling during the shifting period which makes for a 'smoother' shift."

http://www.cobbforums.com/forums/showthread.php?72383-COBB-AccessPORT-OTS-BETA-Testing-for-the-2009-2012-Lancer-Ralliart

Seems like they're taking a page out of Bryan's book, I believe. Either way, Cobb can't come close to the GST basemaps.

[rm_you]

Well, the shifting has seemed smooth enough to me. I am looking forward to trying out the GST map as soon as I find someone locally that has a Tactrix (and will buy one if I like the map and can sell my CobbAP).

[BravoZero]

Moved your pics into a new thread.

[rm_you]

Moved your pics into a new thread.

Thanks!

For anyone who cares, the new build thread is here (and contains pics):
http://clubralliart.com/showthread.php?p=34563

[ever12]

Seems like they're taking a page out of Bryan's book, I believe. Either way, Cobb can't come close to the GST basemaps.

The reason I picked Cobb (and I'm sure the reason a lot of others picked Cobb as well) is that Cobb is continuously putting out new maps for different modding combinations whereas, I believe, the GST basemaps are currently only offered for stock or stock with boost pill configurations. (I know most people have other mods while running the basemaps, but the basemaps aren't tuned for them.) This is obviously no fault of Bryan because he isn't doing this for profit and we are grateful that he has given us something at all, but I wouldn't necessarily say Cobb can't come close. :)

[BravoZero]

The reason I picked Cobb (and I'm sure the reason a lot of others picked Cobb as well) is that Cobb is continuously putting out new maps for different modding combinations whereas, I believe, the GST basemaps are currently only offered for stock or stock with boost pill configurations. (I know most people have other mods while running the basemaps, but the basemaps aren't tuned for them.) This is obviously no fault of Bryan because he isn't doing this for profit and we are grateful that he has given us something at all, but I wouldn't necessarily say Cobb can't come close. :)

You've been out of the loop for months about the basemaps then. He has a full TBE basemap and TBE+AEM basemap.

[ever12]

I stand corrected then. :)

[rm_you]

You've been out of the loop for months about the basemaps then. He has a full TBE basemap and TBE+AEM basemap.

I stand corrected then. :)

Yeah, the GST basemaps are very tempting... I am still looking for someone with a Tactrix cable I can borrow for a day in the San Antonio or Austin area, so I don't have to buy the Tactrix / sell my CobbAP until I can test the GST maps and am sure that is what I want to go with. I'll keep asking around on the NASIOC forums (all my friends here have Suburus) and Evo Forums and maybe I'll get a hit.

[razorlab]

The reason I picked Cobb (and I'm sure the reason a lot of others picked Cobb as well) is that Cobb is continuously putting out new maps for different modding combinations whereas, I believe, the GST basemaps are currently only offered for stock or stock with boost pill configurations. (I know most people have other mods while running the basemaps, but the basemaps aren't tuned for them.) This is obviously no fault of Bryan because he isn't doing this for profit and we are grateful that he has given us something at all, but I wouldn't necessarily say Cobb can't come close. :)

We had basemaps for more variations and for more year models months and months and months before COBB ever did, and for free.

2011 and 2012 Basemaps came out MOOOOONTTTTTHHHHHS before any COBB offerings.

COBB had to start offering more maps for the RA because people where just using our free basemaps instead of buying their $600 pager.

Did I mention the basemaps are free?