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  #21  
Old 09-13-2013, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by MTZL View Post
Excellent input Uemoto-JP.

I can say with front & rear sway bars alone makes a world of difference.
I can carry twice the speed as before with just stickier tires and the rest of the suspensions left stock.

I am curious about the bushing creating toe in understeer, i need a visual reference.

Great discovery, anticipating your pics.
I totally agree, these cars should come from the factory with these larger front and rear bars. It doesn't add any ride harshness that I can perceive (or care about).

Stock arms off the car: if I can put a rod thru the bushing hole and move it spatial around by hand (not just up and down as how the suspension would compress), its probable moving under load on the car. It's the same as me physically grabbing the rear differential and moving it by hand (which you should try!). The engine is probable moving it more!

The trouble is as a top shelf daily driver, it's an excellent car. It's just that I'm terribly OCD about suspension geometry changes that I don't agree with. In the last couple years, auto manufactures has used bushing compliance as a tuning tool, mostly to keep drivers out of trouble. Hence, the strange and difficult "vertical" bushing you see on some cars (Subaru and Mitsubishi). It allows the rear of the lower arm to move back and forth under a levering load introduced by the outside ball joint, which changes the toe. Toe-in if the arm is pulled back, toe-out if the ram is pulled forward.
This same thing happens in the rear swing arm assembly, look at the rear frontmost joint, it's horrible! I have the rear toe set to zero right now until something leads me otherwise.

Depending how busy I'm officiating at the race this weekend, my plan is to run some go-pro cameras on the car. It will only be outside shots as I don't have anything setup for the undercarriage. If I can snap some pictures later, I will post them. I also have a ton of video about whiteline bushing installation, some I've already posted on this forum and youtube.
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  #22  
Old 09-13-2013, 05:43 PM
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I upload a two more pictures of the front control arms.

Also, the other three are from me replacing the rear swing arm front bushing.

Please excuse the messes, I usually have multiple projects going on at the same time, much to the consternation of my wife!

(The quaife differential is for my Super Seven build (Skyline donor), Not the Ralliart! The Ralliart IS NOT my bat-$#!t crazy build, it's still the "family" car...)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_0562.jpg (126.8 KB, 44 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_0563.jpg (143.9 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSC01651.jpg (112.6 KB, 45 views)
File Type: jpg DSC01653.jpg (93.3 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg DSC01655.jpg (134.0 KB, 40 views)
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Last edited by Uemoto-JP; 09-13-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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  #23  
Old 09-16-2013, 06:05 PM
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I reread on some of the stuff you said. Are you using all evo stuff on a lancer?
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  #24  
Old 09-17-2013, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.JayDeeM View Post
I reread on some of the stuff you said. Are you using all evo stuff on a lancer?
Not everything, I've only tried the front lower control arm. I'm sure nothing in the rear of the car is the same. Maybe the front struts would work, have to get access to some to compare. I have used one Evo X suspension part from whiteline, the roll-center adjustment kit. I modified my stock Ralliart arms to accept the part. I do have plans to snap more photos and post something, hopefully this weekend. I can say all the mods i've done have been working, as the front crappy tires I use are rolling over less in a turn.
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  #25  
Old 09-17-2013, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uemoto-JP View Post
Not everything, I've only tried the front lower control arm. I'm sure nothing in the rear of the car is the same. Maybe the front struts would work, have to get access to some to compare. I have used one Evo X suspension part from whiteline, the roll-center adjustment kit. I modified my stock Ralliart arms to accept the part. I do have plans to snap more photos and post something, hopefully this weekend. I can say all the mods i've done have been working, as the front crappy tires I use are rolling over less in a turn.
Jason,

Hello!

Just got the whiteline KDT909 differential kit and saw ur youtube video!

Had to say thank you!!

Chris
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  #26  
Old 09-18-2013, 02:17 PM
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Just read this thread seems very informative and a good one lol. So im just trying to understand and clarify:

Uemoto-JP:
You have stock Ralliart front control arm: with W0593(Ralliart lower inner front bushing), W53382/3 (Ralliart lower inner rear bushing)? and then you bent it to make it stock evo x size and installed KCA395(Evo X bump steer kit)?

Next one is, does the Evo X front control arm fit?(Without any fabrication)?

Sorry if repetitive.
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  #27  
Old 09-19-2013, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nast_Nas View Post
Just read this thread seems very informative and a good one lol. So im just trying to understand and clarify:

Uemoto-JP:
You have stock Ralliart front control arm: with W0593(Ralliart lower inner front bushing), W53382/3 (Ralliart lower inner rear bushing)? and then you bent it to make it stock evo x size and installed KCA395(Evo X bump steer kit)?

Next one is, does the Evo X front control arm fit?(Without any fabrication)?

Sorry if repetitive.
Yes, that's what I did to the stock Ralliart arm. It worked out great! I should have time to take pictures this weekend.

The Evo x arm will fit. But the Whiteline version of the lower rear bushing does not allow enough travel in the suspension. I'm going to re-investigate this, this weekend.
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  #28  
Old 09-19-2013, 12:55 PM
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What exactly is the advantage tof changing the fronts? If we can't Swap the rears to match? Sorry, I'm not a suspension expert, I grasp swapping the setup, but swapping only the front seems counterintuitive..
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  #29  
Old 09-19-2013, 01:56 PM
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The front suspension takes most of the abuse when cornering. FYI.
If you take hard corners you will see side wall starts to wear, when/during the load there is little response you will get from the tires (depends on the grip of the tires performance index) See > slip angle. When you apply throttle at the right moment you can oversteer/spin out even with bone stock setup.

So... since all the weigh is up front during cornering or braking, it makes some sense.
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  #30  
Old 09-19-2013, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTZL View Post
The front suspension takes most of the abuse when cornering. FYI.
If you take hard corners you will see side wall starts to wear, when/during the load there is little response you will get from the tires (depends on the grip of the tires performance index) See > slip angle. When you apply throttle at the right moment you can oversteer/spin out even with bone stock setup.

So... since all the weigh is up front during cornering or braking, it makes some sense.
For people wondering about all this...

Before the mods, I would get tremendous tire rollover halfway up the sidewall, but that was if I overcooked the corner. Now I hardly get any in the same situations. The tire I'm using are high performance all season tires which aren't really desirable, but that's what I have, next year will be different.

Now that I have mad caster up front and almost 2 degrees of static camber, I can tell that I have way more traction up front. The car feels more neutral, and under steer is almost gone. I can rotate under power a tad, but not excessive, and slip angle under high-speed cornering is good. The car feels very stable. Now you can be cheap and install just a larger rear bar, but what's actually happening is that you are now making the rear the same as the front, and your tracking of the car is actually an increased turning circle now. You have to increase the front traction through better tire contact patch management.

Now remember, I'm still an amateur in all this, but I've done enough research to know where I'm going with this. Plus, my feeling of the vehicle has absolutely changed for the better. I tend to drive like its an FR setup, but earlier power aplication in the corner due to 4wd. I should point out that every driver likes a different setup, so what I'm using may not be exactly ideal for someone else. Now with that out of the way, the stock caster setup in the ralliart is absolutely garbage, get it changed!

I did install the largest whiteline front and rear bars that are sold. That does help with body roll. There is still body roll if you have the stock springs installed, but it is reduced in a hard corner. The lowering springs installed by myself and most people exacerbat roll problems. If they are "progressive rate" springs, the car has to take up the slack in the spring before you actually hit the hard bump stops in the car. I've researched this and experienced it, I actually reinstalled the stock springs and ordered replacement, shorter, front progressive bump stops, to eliminate front instantaneous weight transfer (under steer).

Sorry if this is so technical, I'll probably do a video because its easier and more informative.

If I've said anything incorrect, please let me know.

YouTube video of last track day...

http://youtu.be/3fXg6kEfHQw
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